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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
But the point of this thread was that people will have less money to put into a new ATV. The first time buyers will probably seek first in the used market and what will they tend toward but the ones most known for reliability. Whatever brand that has made the most impression in reliability will be what they seek. That last forever Rubicon will come highly recommended. If they enter the new ATV market, they will be drawn to the entry level and slightly above size atvs such as the 400cc and 500cc classes of Utility. The new Rancher seems very well positioned, and the Foreman/Rubicon with EPS will have an appeal. Most of what we see as the necessary features may not even register to someone new to atvs. They will just remember the uncle or friend's father who had a Honda that lasted forever. Reputation like that speaks loudly.
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Rincon-newby
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11/19/08 03:01am |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Ridding in early snow
If you live in the high county and ride ATVs you have been changing jets for Years.When the first Rincons came out and they were sold in the high county we tried to get then to work buy changing the jets and trying to get it to make power at a low engine.If you think a Rincon with 26" tires can even begin to stay with a gade and if it had Big horn you wouldn't be able to follow in it's tracks.
Again Bruce you speak with no practical knowledge since no one in your group rides an 06 Rincon or newer. I never claimed to be able to keep up with a Renegade (he has bigger engine and power), I just said that with the Renegade having Bighorns and my Rincon having XTRs, I could have done better on that snow covered trail because of greater traction tires. Also, Fuel Injection meters not only fuel to a set elevation, but controls other things as well such as in the motors operation. It is more than just a jet change. That is why the fuel injected Rincon will still outperform a properly jetted older Rincon.
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Rincon-newby
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11/11/08 11:44pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Ridding in early snow
I just can't help but make the observation that even with all the extra power of the Renegade in the second vid, it was a helpless as any other ATV trying to get through the snow. Even in the first vid I noticed that you were all running tires that give you no advantage in the snow. My Rincon with its 26" XTR's would have done better than that Renegade. It all goes down to the traction, and not so much the power. We had one Honda with us that day and he had to ride last because of his lack of horsepower and ground clearance.You Rincon would not turn 26" XTR's at 8,000ft.At 8,000ft you lose over 20% of your power and 80% of 0 is -0.
An older Rincon 650 would probably prove you right Bear, especially where is was carbureted, but a newer 680 with EFI has a lot more power, and the EFI would adapt better to the altitude. I ran my 650 at 6,000+ once, and although it did lose some of its oomph, it still turned 27 inch 589s on steel wheels. That said, I think a 680 would handle the 26 inch XTRs just fine.
Also, theres a BIG power difference between a 500 Foreman or Ruby and a Rincon 680, nevermind the SRA vs the IRS. I will give you this though....the GC and locker issues would be an immediate detriment in the deep stuff. No way in hell the Hondas can keep with the other big bores in the deep mud and snow. Installation of a Detroit Gearless locker, bigger tires, and a llift kit would be the answer there, although this would change all the rules, since the Rinny would be far from stock at this point.
As for R-N's statement....hogwash. The lack of a locker and less GC would have negated the advantage offered by the XTRs. NHKINGQUAD used to have an old 300 King Quad. He ran Mudlite ATs on it in stock sizing, and he could sometimes navigate deeper snow than I could with my Rinny sporting the 27 inch 589s. Like it or not, the locker is a key element when it comes to attaining the best possible traction. I'm a big Honda fan too, but facts are facts.
I am just going to throw a suppose at you Chris. Suppose we determine the GC of your old Rincon with the 27" tires and compare that to the GC of that Renegade in the 2nd vid. Would they be about equal or would Your old Rincon be the higher of the two? How about the GC of my Rincon with the 26"(12" rims) XTRs at full inflation pressures? You see, I don't think the GC would be very different. Okay than, with the GC factored out, lets suppose on the locker for the front end. As I have put this into practice with very good effectiveness, by applying front brake, both front wheels become fully engaged. This mimics having a front locker would you say? So in supposing, if those two items are now addressed, than it comes down to the only thing left, that of sufficient power at 8K feet. Being Fuel Injected to negate the effects of elevation, I should than be able to suppose that my power output would be as close to what I have here in Georgia. With suppositions than, I have a well founded reason to believe that my lowly Rincon with 26" XTRs should out do that Renegade with the Maxxis Bighorns in that snow covered trail. Now to you for dispute.
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Rincon-newby
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11/11/08 07:48pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
Speaking of 3 1/2 wheel drive, watch the visco lock disengage every time this rider lets off the throttle, particularly at the end of the pit when he needs the front end locked the most.
Note the low wheel speeds Bruce. These guys know how to traverse mud properly. Lots of wheel speed is detrimental to mud crossings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA3asO26xZc
Loved the video Chris, and it shows how the Outlander was owned by the Artic Cat and Grizzly.
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 07:58pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
hears a video of a honda look at how slow the tires turn.honda video
Do you listen to the videos or just watch them in silent mode? If you listen, the rider is barely giving it enough throttle to come off idle, so how fast do you expect those tires to turn. Secondly, if you knew anything about mudding, you would know that wheel speed is a bad thing in a hole like that. In mud, the key is to crawl out. Spinning the tires fast just seals your doom in the mud. I know you don't ride mud, so I thought I'd point this out.
Good input cchagros, but I also can't help from responding as well. I have been in this position many times and will come in the same tracks left by those high clearance machines that dig out these ruts on the trails. Two things I want you to note Bruce if you are observant enoough. One, he traveled down the middle of the ruts. And two, he used his front break in finaigling it through the mud hole. I, in knowing my clearance limitation, would have opted for riding slight right or left of the hole to keep my front wheels along the side to steal traction; it works and is effective. I would stay on the machine as much as possible but would be leaning way out to the side and somewhat forward to give purchase to the front wheels. Also by using the front brake like the guy did in the video, I would in effect lock the front wheels into turning all the time giving me the power to pull myself out of the hole. With the XTRs I have, if I spin the wheels too fast, it will ALWAYS invaribly just dig me deeper into being stuck. They work best at just enough power to turn the wheels.
I do not know why I am telling you this because it will be over your head, but other who read this will probably agree.
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 07:48pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
HOWEVER, you must acknowledge that before the 950s, 850s, 800s, 750s, 700s, 680s, and 650s even existed, there were people going to those altitudes on 450s, 500s, and 600s, and quite successfully. Its obvious that the more power surplus you have, the better, but even with a midsize ATV, it can indeed be done. Way back in time I had two stroke Polaris's they had a power and traction advantage over the Honda 300's and the old 350 Foreman.In fact their advantage was as much as the 800 0utlander has over the Rincon.A If Honda has all this power why does Hi Lifter make a gear reduction for them.
Bruce, you are like a hard headed step child who is so myoptic you can't see past your nose. The Rincon is designed for sport utility trail riding and is not the first choice for deep mud excursion. The gear reduction in for lowering the torque inertia the bigger wheels and tires would have on the Rincon gear ratios. This also limits the top end of the Rincon, and on normal trail riding would keep the motor at a higher RPM. I personaly would not install this mod because I like the way this machine performs in trail riding, and it is more than adequate when riding in the mud with the XTRs. Just using logic here Bruce, The Rincon of today is much better powered than your 2 stroke Polaris of yesterday, and I get the impression you felt your Polaris was more than adequate at the time. Logic would say that with the advantage of much more power in todays Rincon over the older Polaris, that the modern day Rincon is very much more adequate by your own standards to perform well. This is where I see your disconnect to reasonable thinking. If the Rincon is more than adequately powered compared to an older Polaris, it just means you paid 3 to 5K more dollars than I did for your machine just to increase your power excess. hmmmm!!!
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 07:32pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Trail oriented sport quads.
For adults of size like myself, around 230lbs, I think it would have to be 400cc and above to realy make it interesting for the purchaser. It would be a machine they could grow on and not feel limited after a short while. Even new there are alot of good deals out there for purchasing a sport quad. I think most 450 size sports are more geared for the racing minded people, which leaves that cc class of machine for the more experienced. I like the the 510 IRS outlaw, but how does it compare in price to the 400cc class machines? The upgraded Z400 looks promising, but there are still earlier left over Z's and EX's that could be gotten for around $4K. Thats where I steer most people looking for a new sport to start on.
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 05:36pm |
Sport/Performance
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RE: Ridding in early snow
I beg to differ, because I have ridden in Colorado at 10k to 12k on my Rincon and still had power to climb the steepest of trails. Which Honda model did you have riding with you that day? The honda that came along was a 500 and Cob had some honda video taken in Colorado in the snow.I think they were pushing the Honda's were the other ATV's could drive though without any help.
I take all the other atv's were IRS, and the Honda being SRA it does not surprise me that you made this statement. You do realize that the Rincon is an IRS equiped machine, and it was designed and built with 10.8 inches of clearance vice the 11.8 inches of clearance of the Grizzly. That one inch clearance difference makes a huge difference in the handling on trails. Your Outlander has twelve plus inches of clearance. I am a little over one inch closer to getting high centered than you, which gives you advantage in mud and snow, and gives me an advantage in a lower cg and handling. I am trying to remember if you have ever said that someone in one of your groups had been on a Rincon. If so, were they on the 06 or newer Rincon? If not, how than are you making statements on what Honda's will and will not do?
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 02:26am |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
If I'm wrong about Honda's perfornance at 8000ft lets see the video.Don't make it personal.
Yes you are wrong about Honda's performance at 8000ft. I personally have ridden at 10 to 12K ft and had plenty of power on Honda's. I rode my brother's 450R and he rode my Rincon up one of the steepest mountain trails at Lake City Colorado, that was quite challenging, with more than enough power to get the job done. I get the impression that you only speak from your own experiences, which seem limited and jaded, and have made your doctrine on old and out of date impressions.
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 01:06am |
Utility/4x4
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RE: race vid
Hey blaster, have you had a chance to race in the woods yet? That is what me and my gang have gotten to doing only because there is no track available, and we made our own course at our local riding area. Which seems more strenuous to you?
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Rincon-newby
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11/10/08 12:03am |
Sport/Performance
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RE: Trail oriented sport quads.
For myself, I would have to go with either an Outlaw 525IRS, a 700XX, or a KFX700. The 400s are fine machines as well, but they're a bit on the small side for my taste. I think in the end, an Outlaw or a 700XX would be my final choice. If I needed 4WD capabiltiy, it would be a Gade 800R-X all the way.
Sounds like all good choices for an experience rider, and on the high side of expensive. Hey, as you get older your taste get more expensive.
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Rincon-newby
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11/09/08 02:59am |
Sport/Performance
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RE: Trail oriented sport quads.
Most of the people who come up to me know I ride alot, and they always ask what the best ATV with which to start riding. I always ask utility or sport, and they aren't even that familiar with what is available or the type of riding to do. I tell them some of the wisdom my brothers passed to me, start with a utility and than move into sport. Some just want to start with sport. They are not interested in racing, and find enjoyment in riding the trails. I still think that most new riders are looking more for a trail machine with reverse and so forth.
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 04:58pm |
Sport/Performance
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
Well, well, newby do you have any Video's of you Honda in the mud or snow so we can see those 26" mud tires throwing mud or snow.If not I will see if I can get some .
I think if you just follow out the view post under my forum name and follow it back you would see several of the times I submitted pictures. I have videos of trips I've taken but have yet to get it right on posting them.
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 04:52pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Its not all bad...maybe
I heard on a national radio show, I think the Laura Ingram show, where some are predicting there could be three women running for President in 2012. Now that could be a cat fight worth seeing.
What, this was the year of the African-American male? Next will be the year of the Dominant woman?
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 01:00am |
Open Forum
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Trail oriented sport quads.
With most of the new sport quads being more race oriented, which ones are left that have a more trail orientation?
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 12:55am |
Sport/Performance
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RE: race vid
I could almost smell the dirt in the air while I was watching that vid. How does that affect you after a whole race of breathing that dust?
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 12:49am |
Sport/Performance
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
Kmdad If I wanted to just ride I might have a Honda but it's more fun to lead.
Ha Ha! oh bear, a man with your years behind you that still can't understand quality is such a waste. Just like when I ride with Can Ams they love the fact that I'm behind, 'cause when the break downs start, they are glad that someone's there to pick them up. When Your Honda gets 12,000 plus miles them you can talk about quality.Let's see no power no locker no low range since the 1990 350 foreman know thats real quality.
I think you work on a different reality than others. Power, locker, low range, and 12K + miles have nothing to do with quality. I worked out your 12K miles in 900 hours to equate to 14 to 15 miles per hour average. At best, with all the trail riding I've done including in Colorado/West Virginia/Louisiana/Arkansas/Missouri and Georgia, I've gotten 8 miles per the hour average. I wonder what that means as to the strenuous type of riding you do?
Quality is different from features. Fit and finish are parts of quality, as well as the materials used and the design. All areas Honda is most known for. I think the Polaris line shows more quality than I've seen in the Cam-ams I've looked at in the dealerships.Like I have said before lets see the pictures or maybe even a video to prove you even have a Honda.
Actually I have pictures on this forum of all three of my Hondas. You just failed to see at the time. Than again you probably only check out the utility, fight club and open sections.
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Rincon-newby
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11/08/08 12:36am |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
When did I say that Honda could not make a ATV that could perform.Your statement comparing a 450R two my 800max is a complement and I thank you for that.I will wait for the Video of a Honda doing well in the snow or mud.Until I see the video I will just keep on kicking Honda utility A$$ .
I see you have modified your boast somewhat. My claim was that I could kick "your" patuti with my Rincon on my trails where it is not a point of power, but skill and agility. This is not a claim against the Outlander, just you. You mean you don't need a low gear or a locking differental if that is wear you ride why do you even need a 4X4.O that's wright you don't have a real 4X4 you have a 2and a 1/2 wheel drive Honda.
I can truthfully say that I have touched a nerve!!! Has to revert to old worn out "Bruce" statements to have a come back. Hey Bruce, not all trail riding is mud pits and snow banks. And believe it or not a locker is not needed in most hill climbing and mud traversing cases. Be honest, what percentage of time do you run around with the locker engaged?
Thats the irony of it....he can't. Visco Lock doesn't engage UNLESS he is already slipping badly with his one front drive wheel. He has no contro; pver when it locks/unlocks.
I knew someone perceptive like you cchagross would have known that but I was curious if ole Bruce could pick up on it. This puts all of his "locker" statements in perspective to his own situation, ie. maybe he doesn't know what all he is talking about!!!
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Rincon-newby
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11/07/08 10:20pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Hanging with who brung us to the dance...
When did I say that Honda could not make a ATV that could perform.Your statement comparing a 450R two my 800max is a complement and I thank you for that.I will wait for the Video of a Honda doing well in the snow or mud.Until I see the video I will just keep on kicking Honda utility A$$ .
I see you have modified your boast somewhat. My claim was that I could kick "your" patuti with my Rincon on my trails where it is not a point of power, but skill and agility. This is not a claim against the Outlander, just you. You mean you don't need a low gear or a locking differental if that is wear you ride why do you even need a 4X4.O that's wright you don't have a real 4X4 you have a 2and a 1/2 wheel drive Honda.
I can truthfully say that I have touched a nerve!!! Has to revert to old worn out "Bruce" statements to have a come back. Hey Bruce, not all trail riding is mud pits and snow banks. And believe it or not a locker is not needed in most hill climbing and mud traversing cases. Be honest, what percentage of time do you run around with the locker engaged?
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Rincon-newby
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11/07/08 06:43pm |
Utility/4x4
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RE: Ridding in early snow
I just can't help but make the observation that even with all the extra power of the Renegade in the second vid, it was a helpless as any other ATV trying to get through the snow. Even in the first vid I noticed that you were all running tires that give you no advantage in the snow. My Rincon with its 26" XTR's would have done better than that Renegade. It all goes down to the traction, and not so much the power. We had one Honda with us that day and he had to ride last because of his lack of horsepower and ground clearance.You Rincon would not turn 26" XTR's at 8,000ft.At 8,000ft you lose over 20% of your power and 80% of 0 is -0.
After thinking about this a few days, and having gone riding on the Rincon in the mud a few times, I reflected back to the times I have gotten the Rincon stuck in the mud with the XTR's installed, it never had a problem turning the wheels even in the thickest mud I had found. The issue had ended up being that I was high centered, and the tires could find no purchase to even get traction. The thing was, that it was always 4 wheels that were turning, and not 3. I know the example was always given that if the one front wheel was up in the air, only the one in the air would turn. While in the mud, both front wheels were always turning. This is what I've seen in all the cases where I've been stuck. So it always turned into a case of high centeredness, than the wheels not turning. In all the cases I tried not to push the tranny too hard out of concern for overheating. That is the only other area that I see the Rincon at a disadvantage during going through the deep stuff. By the way, the last time I got stuck was at a hole where the mud was as thick as brpbear's thinking, and every machine including the lockerites were as stuck as myself.
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Rincon-newby
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11/07/08 05:48pm |
Utility/4x4
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